Celeris Forums

Hi,

I just got off my first session of English Billiards in VP4.
Firstly, I'd like to congratulate you on the first proper implementation in a computer cuesports game. Well done :)

Then, I'd like to ask if you would take some advice concerning the rules of the game?
You got the basics right, but there are some details (fouls, playing from the D with the object ball in the baulk area) that need to be improved.

cheers,

Redphex

Please list any errors you see and if you can reference the section of the rules online that talk about that here: http://www.englishbilliards.org/theOffi ... hBilliards
Thanks.

I just say I must to to mr. vpeer. After keeping eyes open 24 hours, help new players with problems in the facebook chat and also asking to list the problems that should be fixed into the next patch. Thats awesome attitude, never see any game developers to react this fast and with passion, cheers.

Thanks, we are trying. May take some time to get some issues worked out though.

I agree, thanks for having an ear or rather eye for the issues that arise :)

Here is what I found out so far:

1) Spotting Object Balls

Rule:
http://www.englishbilliards.org/theOffi ... liards#3_8

"If the red is potted twice in succession in one break from the Spot or from the Pyramid Spot, not in conjunction with another score, it shall be placed on the Centre Spot"

VP4 Behavior:
the red ball is placed on the Centre Spot after two pots from anywhere on the table, regardless if the red was on the Spot or not


2) Playing from In-Hand

Rule:
http://www.englishbilliards.org/theOffi ... liards#3_6

"The cue-ball must be played out of Baulk. If it contacts an object ball when it is out of Baulk, the cue-ball is held to have been played out of Baulk even though it may not physically cross the Baulk-line."
"The cue-ball must contact a cushion or ball out of Baulk before re-entering and coming to rest in Baulk, or before hitting a ball in Baulk."
"The cue-ball may be played against a cushion in Baulk before hitting a ball out of Baulk."

VP4 Behavior:
It is no foul to directly hit a ball in the baulk area when playing from hand

2a) a Miss, and the consequences

Rules:
http://www.englishbilliards.org/theOffi ... iards#2_16
http://www.englishbilliards.org/theOffi ... iards#3_16

When faced with a situation being in-hand, and no ball out of the baulk area, the stiker is not obliged to actually hit a ball. If he fails to hit a ball, a miss (not a foul) is called. In this case, the non-striker is awarded 2 points, but there is no option to have the balls spotted. Play continues with the balls situated as they are.

VP4 Behavior:
VP4 does not identify a double baulk situation( = both object balls in the baulk area when playing from in-hand) (as stated in 2)), thus it calls a foul in case no object ball is hit, and offers the balls to be spotted.

Questions on this:

1) Indeed there seems to be an error here. If the red gets knocked off on a shot by the cue ball, then potted from this new position, not on the spot, it does still count that as on the spot, so that needs to be fixed. It seems like the only way the red will not be on the spot is if it is either knocked off by a ball, or if it is spotted on the pyramid or centre. Is that a correct assessment?

I'm also not sure the condition "not in conjunction with another score" is taken into account. Did you check that. I don't see where that is check in the code. Also does conjunction mean something like a cannon or hazard on the same shot where the red it potted?

2) How do you get a situation where there are balls behind Baulk, seems like they always spot. Must be a way or they would not have this rule, lol.

vpeer wrote: 1)It seems like the only way the red will not be on the spot is if it is either knocked off by a ball, or if it is spotted on the pyramid or centre. Is that a correct assessment?

The red is not on the spot, if it has been hit or touched by another ball, or if it has been spotted on the centre spot.
The precise (but reversed) definition would be that the red is on the spot, only when it has been replaced there after a pot.

Thing with the pyramid spot is - the red will be only placed there, if the usual spot is occupied by another ball (this seems to work in VP4). In this case, the pyramid spot is a 1:1 replacement of the usual spot.

The usual rhythm with continuously potting the red would be:

first pot off the spot -> replaced to the spot
second pot off the spot -> replaced to the center spot
pot off the center spot -> replaced to the spot
... this over and over until the 15 hazard limit is reached (http://www.englishbilliards.org/theOffi ... iards#3_10)

The "pot-off-the spot" counter also should be reset to 0 if the player changes. It seems not to be the case currently in VP4.

vpeer wrote: I'm also not sure the condition "not in conjunction with another score" is taken into account. Did you check that. I don't see where that is check in the code. Also does conjunction mean something like a cannon or hazard on the same shot where the red it potted?

Yes, the conjunction means either a cannon or in-off in the same shot with the pot.
I verified the VP4 behavior in case of pot with cannon - it correctly spots the red on the spot and not on the centre spot.

vpeer wrote: 2) How do you get a situation where there are balls behind Baulk, seems like they always spot. Must be a way or they would not have this rule, lol.

This is a common situation in safety play.

An example:
Red ball is located somewhere in the baulk area, next to the baulk cushion.
Player 1 pots the opponent's cue ball.
Then he just rolls his cue ball to hit the red slowly, with the result of both balls in a safe position inside the baulk area.

Player 2 comes to the table, with ball in hand. He now must not hit one of the two balls directly. He has to hit a cushion outside the baulk area first!
(http://www.englishbilliards.org/theOffi ... liards#3_6)
So he plays his cue ball up and down the table, hitting at least 1 cushion outside baulk. If his cue ball fails to hit one of the balls in the baulk area, a miss is called. 2 penalty points go to Player 1, who has to continue to play from where the balls came to rest.


During testing, I also found another small bug:

When playing to a points-limit (e.g. first to 25) - the game does not recognize the limit is hit if the last scoring event was a foul. You could play endlessly if you commited one foul after the other.

The count now only increments if the red is on the spot

Redphex wrote:The "pot-off-the spot" counter also should be reset to 0 if the player changes. It seems not to be the case currently in VP4.

That is correct now


I think the VP4 definition of baulk is incorrect for EB. VP4 is considering the D baulk the cue all is restricted to the D. Seems like EB is like pool, the baulk is defined by the line across the table at the front of the D and the cue ball can be place anywhere between the line and the end of the table?

vpeer wrote: I think the VP4 definition of baulk is incorrect for EB. VP4 is considering the D baulk the cue all is restricted to the D. Seems like EB is like pool, the baulk is defined by the line across the table at the front of the D and the cue ball can be place anywhere between the line and the end of the table?

The baulk area is defined by the line across the table. This defines the area balls must not be hit directly when playing the cue-ball from in hand.
But when playing from in-hand, the cue-ball has to be played from inside the D.

Not as the rules I played with in Billiards,you only ever played from the D,unless thees been some radical changes to the rules.

Fixed the baulk, not the full width, checks to see if cue ball moves outside of baulk on the shot.

I think I have this all correct. Though the spotting needs more testing. Found another issue today where the red count was wrong off the break.

Great!
Will there be an online update?

Yes.

After applying the patch I again had an occurance of the red ball being spotted on the centre instead of the black spot ...
And after having played some time - I think the cueball's throw is a little bit too strong ... especially with rather thin contacts on the object ball.
Is there a way to tweak this?

Baulkline rules seem to be correct now.

If you could provide more detail on the incorrect spot it would help. How exactly it occurred.

You say the throw is too strong, at what speed, it changes with speed. The setup for EB is fairly low throw, the balls are pretty clean. Is it common to play EB with very clean polished balls?

For the purposes of VP4 id say of course the balls should be clean.
However my experience of Snooker clubs is that you usually find there is one set of Proper English Billiard balls behind the front desk(both while cue balls one with a spot on it and the red) as you go in and thats it and that theyre rarely used.Very often youll find they are much better condition than the snooker balls cos they dont get anywhere near as much wear and tear on them.

I will try to do some recordings for both the pot-off-the spot and throw.
Guess this will be easier than trying to rely purely on words :)

Attachment contains the recording of a situation where the red should be spotted on the black spot, but VP4 puts it on the centre spot.

yellow plays the red off the spot towards pocket.
white pots red -> respot to black spot (correct)
white pots red off the spot -> respot to centre (not correct, because it was the first pot in the break off the spot, so it should go onto the black spot again)

I saw someone talked about this in FB:
pot Red outside the Spot, pot Red again on the Spot, then Red goes to Centre Spot --> this is wrong
If you apply the rule below, the count should be 1 not 2, only Spot counts.

"If the red is potted twice in succession in one break from the Spot or from the Pyramid Spot, not in conjunction with another score, it shall be placed on the Centre Spot"

I believe that's the same rule Redphex was referring too.

OH! Yeah, my poor English.