VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

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VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby klingklang76 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:04 am

The new billiards table is pretty cool, but some major flaws must be corrected: to start with, it's too slow, but that can be fixed with custom settings. What's worse, the bounces off the rails are too weak the ball "dies" too much after each rail contact), and most of all the table plays unrealistically long. To get what I mean, see this screenshot:

Image

On the longest of rl tables, this shot would finish at the right low corner. I used maximum running english allowed before miscueing. The contact point of the third rail is way too low (should be around the 4th diamond, a little further at most).

Hope some of these issues can be fixed :)
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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby Fluke[FIN] » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:17 am

Something just crossed my mind when reading the post above.. I realized this when I read that the cushions are not bouncy enough; when using tracking lines, vp4 could have a multi-color tracking line instead of all-white-line to show the speed of the moving ball. Like, a fast movement shown as red color and when the movement gets slower the color changes to orange..yellow.. whatever. The phenomenom of what klingklang is referring could then easily be easily seen on how the tracking line color changes after a bounce off from a cushion.
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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby klingklang76 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:17 am

BTW: same shot in VP3... we do need something in between ;)

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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby vpeer » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:07 pm

I'll take a look at it and see what can be done.
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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby klingklang76 » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:12 am

To bring another example, the break shot (a very basic position, with quite a large margin of error) is almost impossible to make. I've tried with tracking lines on, and hardly could score the point that way. Playing with the force and english required on a real table, you miss the third ball by a foot or more. As of now, billiards (especially 3c) is definitely unplayable.
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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby zwylle » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:18 am

Hmm.. the break shot seems OK to me, can make it about every time. But I'm a pool player and I think I generally use less side spin than billiards players tend to use.
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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby klingklang76 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:34 am

This is the "perfect" break shot (check any game on youtube to confirm): the red goes short, long, short and finishes around the middle of the table; cue ball goes 3c and pushes the opponent's ball towards the corner. In VP4, you either go very long (like in this screenshot) or get the double kiss if you play with unnatural english in order to shorten the shot enough to score the point. Try it :)

P.S: again, in VP3, it's virtually impossible to miss the break shot long (I've seen it happen maybe a couple of times), and that is just as unrealistic, but more playable (at least the shot comes out nicely if you use maximum running english).

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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby vpeer » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:13 am

We will have to do some tuning. What I need though is a set of reference shots. This is one, but that is not enough.
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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby klingklang76 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:32 am

There are several websites in which systems and ball path examples are shown, this is one: http://mr3cushion.com/ but there are many more.
A good knowledge of the diamond system would help enormously, here is an easy yet comprehensive explanation (which also confirms what I've said in the first post): http://www.the8knights.com/diamondsystem.htm

Thanks
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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby zwylle » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:34 am

From what I know IRL the shot would only be played with slight english.
At least that's what Willie Hoppe wrote in 'Billiards as it should be played'.
If you do that and shoot less hard (the red ball wouldn't get back out of the kitchen), it's relatively easy to make the break shot in VP4.

This doesn't mean the rail model is right, but it might be not as bad as you may think.
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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby klingklang76 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:40 am

zwylle wrote:From what I know IRL the shot would only be played with slight english.
At least that's what Willie Hoppe wrote in 'Billiards as it should be played'.
If you do that and shoot less hard (the red ball wouldn't get back out of the kitchen), it's relatively easy to make the break shot in VP4.

This doesn't mean the rail model is right, but it might be not as bad as you may think.


All due respect to Willie Hoppe (quite possibly the best billiard player ever), but back in his days balls and most of all tables were not the same as today, they were not heated, the cloth was not nearly as fast and smooth, cushions were different etc.
Not every player plays the break shot the same way, but most of them apply a lot of english, again take any game available on youtube to confirm

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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby zwylle » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:19 am

I uploaded a 3c break shot to FB. Looks pretty much like what this guy is doing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtvx-ol7pQw (the first shooter ;-))
Zoom in to when he is shooting. He's not applying much english either.
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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby klingklang76 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:19 am

Well, all I can say is that I've played quite a lot of 3c IRL, on tables in very different conditions, watched even more recorded pro games, read several book about it, and VP4 plays nothing like the real thing. I ask you to figure it out please, because I've bought the game mainly for 3c, and as it is now It's very disappointing. Thanks :)
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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby zwylle » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:26 am

Pretty sure they'll change something. My point was just that it may not as bad.
I'm looking forward to it too. Curious what the difference will be.
It's a great game.
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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby ingmu » Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:09 am

The follow and draw are greater than vp3, when it's not touching the rail.
I haven't played much, so I can only say I feel weird about the route of cue ball too.

I guess when the cue ball hits the rail, it curves too easily, too much than it should be on some cases?
Do you think it's the same reason or situation as the first picture?
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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby Albinario » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:18 am

Maybe the rails compress too much and push the balls back at too large of an angle?

Feels like that when banking in pool too, you gotta hit the ball much thinner than you think to make a bank unless you're slow-rolling it. In vp3 it didn't push back enough, but now it feels like it pushes a bit too much.
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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby klingklang76 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:08 am

Albinario wrote:Maybe the rails compress too much and push the balls back at too large of an angle?

Feels like that when banking in pool too, you gotta hit the ball much thinner than you think to make a bank unless you're slow-rolling it. In vp3 it didn't push back enough, but now it feels like it pushes a bit too much.


Couldn't explain it any better =D>
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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby vpeer » Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:10 am

We have changed the rail shorten curve some. Only for pool at this point.
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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby klingklang76 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:44 am

After a few months (well it's more than a year indeed ;)) I downloaded and installed the game once again. I'm happy to say that 3c, to my eye, now works just as good and realistic as it gets :w00t: Too bad I can still only practice with myself... ;)
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Re: VP4 billiards table too long + other issues

Postby vpeer » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:16 pm

Next update will be even better for billiards
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