Pivot vs Rest

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deraltefritz
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Pivot vs Rest

Post by deraltefritz » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:58 pm

Hi there,

I was not a fan of pivot aiming when I first read about it on FB, and I'm not a fan now.
Having said that, apart from it being very unfamiliar in the beginning, it can't be ignored that aiming with medium to heavy use of side english, at least when the cue is roughly parallel to the table, is much easier while "pivoting" (the lazy reader may skip the rest of the post for now and inspect the images below).
The cue deflects much more to the side than it did in VP3 when using any of the other aiming methods. As the cueball curves on either aiming method when the cue is raised, and the throw of the object ball to the side when hit with side english is also identical, there's really no point (from a competitive point of view) not to use pivot mode.

The four images on the bottom of this post demonstrate the big advantage of pivot mode. The first two shots are taken with minimal speed, the last two shots with quite a lot of it. Both shots were aimed without side english to hit dead center (and before someone mentions it, I did use the lowest deflection shaft available). Using pivot (second and fourth image), the ball is potted, and the more power is applied, the more straight the shot gets. Using 'none' (e.g. the legacy vp mode), the cueball deflects heavily, naturally varying with the speed of the shot.
Only with a lot of practice is one able to compensate this deflection reliably on any shot with any speed (as it is in real life). Using pivot mode on the other hand, the deflection is close to zero and quite independent of the speed of the shot, except for very slow ones.

I know that this pivot technique is known, but I can't recall having seen many professionals on TV actually use it. I have not read about it (let alone it being recommended) in any book on snooker / billiards / pool I've had in my hands. I have not read an article about it in Billiards Digest, or having someone in the pool and billiards clubs I was a member of mention it to me.
I assume the reason for it not being commonly used is the fact that it's a lot more difficult to get right with a real cue, most evidently being the fact that you can't move your arm straight (as in parallel to the viewing direction) like on a normal shot, plus it requires 'calibrating' your cue for the right pivot spot.

On VP4 on the other hand, none of that matters. Just switch to 'pivot', and you're good to go. I don't think it's good (quite the opposite), but unless nobody is using it, most players will be forced to use it once VP4 comes online if they want to stay competitive. Maybe not so much for snooker, but at least on a pool table, where side english is required on oh so many shots.

This post is to be read as a warning. If VP4 is supposed to be realistic (and make your real game better), it's a bit weird if everyone online will use an aiming mode that they don't see used on TV and most probably don't use themselves when they have a go at a table nearby. I have no idea how to make pivot mode more challenging, and I certainly don't want the parallel aiming version to have much less deflection than they do now (thinking about it, a bit less like in VP3 wouldn't hurt ;-) ). But as it is now, pivot mode has too many advantages over the standard techniques for this issue to be ignored, at least from a realism point of view.



Image
Fig.1. Aiming mode 'none', slow pace. The cueball gets deflected noticeably.

Image
Fig.2. Aiming mode 'pivot', slow pace. The cueball curves slightly, but the ball still goes in.

Image
Fig.3. Aiming mode 'none', fast pace. The cueball gets deflected even more.

Image
Fig.4. Aiming mode 'pivot', fast pace. The cueball doesn't curve (it stops curving at much less pace than this), and the ball is hit almost dead center.
Node: I accidentally moved the mouse on the last screen-shot, resulting in a slight point of view difference than the other three images here. But for all images, I was in view-mode (key 'v'), aim and force of the shots are all the same.

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zwylle
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Re: Pivot vs Rest

Post by zwylle » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:42 pm

deraltefritz wrote: I know that this pivot technique is known, but I can't recall having seen many professionals on TV actually use it.
I find it hard to tell from watching a video if someone is using pivot english (in German 'Kreuzen') or not, but I know for sure this guy does it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnD0O3fw ... re=related
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Re: Pivot vs Rest

Post by 9balldotcom » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:48 pm

I have to admit that I havent given any thought to the pivot english method at all.
The first day I tried it it was making me feel ill and I had to turn it off immediately as i just couldnt come to grips with it.

Ill play some pool with it on and see if theres any advantage or disadvantage to a numpty using it.

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Re: Pivot vs Rest

Post by sharkey9 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:50 am

It is a huge advantage.
In another post I even called it a cheat - because you almost can't go wrong.
Just aim and add any english you like, make sure it won't swerve and your shot will most likely go in.
Even if you add english by accident, pivot saves you the pot.
On the other hand if you play "normal" there's so much deflection in this game making it nearly impossible to get a feel for it.
Try it out, practice some pool, play some weird english and you'll see it's peanuts.

Like Fritz said, to stay competitive, everyone will switch to pivot aiming in VP4 - at the expense of your real game.
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Re: Pivot vs Rest

Post by Hanterp » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:53 am

Even with pivot it is hard to pot balls in snooker using English. In pool it is a lot easier.

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Re: Pivot vs Rest

Post by zwylle » Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:10 pm

sharkey9 wrote:It is a huge advantage.
In another post I even called it a cheat - because you almost can't go wrong.
Just aim and add any english you like, make sure it won't swerve and your shot will most likely go in.
Even if you add english by accident, pivot saves you the pot.
Try the following:
- Switch to pivot english
- Go to trickshot mode
- Turn on tracking lines
- Set up any shot, no english, from about center table to hit center pocket
- Lower the butt, to exclude any possibility of swerve
- Move the cue tip to apply english
You will see the tracking line going from the object ball to the pocket changes the more english you apply and eventually will miss the pocket.

Therefore with pivot english you can not use the same aiming point for shots with englisch as you can for shots without english.
Although you get less deflection travelling to the object ball, you still have to compensate in your aiming for the impact of english on the object ball.
Pivot english is not a cheat.
It's just one possible method to apply english.
You don't have to use it, but please don't insult the people who do.
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Re: Pivot vs Rest

Post by 9balldotcom » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:06 pm

I would agree that its in no way a cheat.

I been testing this pivot english for the past couple of days and I cant see where the cheating is in it.

Your still having to judge a shot when your using english,its not some sort of automatic guarantee your going to sink the ball.

Its not improved my aiming or potting over night i can tell you that.

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Re: Pivot vs Rest

Post by sharkey9 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:50 am

Let me get this straight.
I don't say it is a cheat, it just made me feel it was. Kind of.
And if you read my post I used the terms "almost" "most likely" "advantage" etc.
I'm not insulting anyone, just expressing my feelings.
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Re: Pivot vs Rest

Post by zwylle » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:11 pm

Oh my bad. I must have read in 'another post' that you called it a cheat and missed that you were only 'almost' calling it a cheat in this one. :bootyshake:
No worries.. just winding you up.
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Re: Pivot vs Rest

Post by sharkey9 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:42 pm

Cheat or not, don't be so nitpicky.

Will still make your real game :gagme:
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Re: Pivot vs Rest

Post by zwylle » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:07 pm

sharkey9 wrote: Will still make your real game :gagme:
VP4 pivot is actually helping my game IRL.
My RL pool trainer teaches an aiming method based on pivot.
Pretty cool, because his aiming method works in VP4 just as he explains it IRL.
Now all I gotta do is shoot a million balls :-k
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Re: Pivot vs Rest

Post by vpeer » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:23 pm

I am posting the unthinkable, the dreaded, post coming soon message.

I have a great response for this very well conceived post. But I want to put it on the VPOnline blog as the first subject (well actually second after the welcome post). We are doing some tweaks to layout and text formatting on the blog, as soon as that is done, I'll blog on it and post back here when it is up. You can read it there and respond there too.

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Re: Pivot vs Rest

Post by Hanterp » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:27 pm

Where is that blog? Link please, as Google does not help me out.

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Re: Pivot vs Rest

Post by vpeer » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:21 pm

I'll post the blog link as soon as we get the blog working.

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Re: Pivot vs Rest

Post by Hanterp » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:32 am

Thanks, looking forward to it!

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Re: Pivot vs Rest

Post by deraltefritz » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:35 pm

zwylle wrote:
sharkey9 wrote:It is a huge advantage.
In another post I even called it a cheat - because you almost can't go wrong.
Just aim and add any english you like, make sure it won't swerve and your shot will most likely go in.
Even if you add english by accident, pivot saves you the pot.
Try the following:
- Switch to pivot english
- Go to trickshot mode
- Turn on tracking lines
- Set up any shot, no english, from about center table to hit center pocket
- Lower the butt, to exclude any possibility of swerve
- Move the cue tip to apply english
You will see the tracking line going from the object ball to the pocket changes the more english you apply and eventually will miss the pocket.

Therefore with pivot english you can not use the same aiming point for shots with englisch as you can for shots without english.
Although you get less deflection travelling to the object ball, you still have to compensate in your aiming for the impact of english on the object ball.
Pivot english is not a cheat.
It's just one possible method to apply english.
You don't have to use it, but please don't insult the people who do.

But you will see much more deflection when using "normal" or "parallel" mode though, as can be seen in the pictures of my first post. It doesn't mean it's the easiest thing in the world to use english with pivot mode, but it's a lot easier than the other methods. Of course you need to practice for a while, as being a vp3 player you're intuitively used to the ball deflecting quite a bit when using more than a tip of side english. But I've played with pivot a lot now (pretty much all the time), and it's just much easier. Slow rolls will curve a bit more, and the object ball will still throw to the side as it does with any other method. But once you apply more force to the shot, it gets more and more like aiming and shooting without side.

Me too, I don't intend to call anyone using it a cheat (I use it myself, lol).
Just saying that players who like to use a lot of side on their shots at a pool table will have it much easier when using pivot. Even though they would never use it in real life. I don't use it in real life, but I assume there are other difficulties that VP4 doesn't simulate. Like moving your arm not parallel to the aiming line, therefore making it more difficult to hit the cueball at the intended pot, and whatnot. Maybe it is just as easy (and such an advantage) in real life. And maybe every professional uses it, and we just can't see it on TV because it's difficult to spot. No idea, but it will be used in VP4 online a lot, I'm sure.

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