Windows 7 support for VP3

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Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby Apollon » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:08 pm

Did a quick search - seems like no one has brought this up so far. Given the fact, Windows 7 was already released to hardware & software manufacturers and MSDN subscribers on August 3rd, and the release date for the rest of end users is October 22nd - I think it's about time to pop the question. Personally, i've been running Windows 7 for nearly a months now, and I can say that VP3 does work, but there is an issue with video driver compatibility or possible DirectX 11 issue.
Most of the time, not always, when you start the game the screen gives a few flashes and then the game background is covered with light colored bubbles in many places, affecting the table visibility, aim path and the ball shapes. It's a bit hard to describe, so I tried to take a screenshot and post it here - amazingly enough on the screenshot everything looks perfect and flawless. I tried 4 different graphics card drivers for my Nvidia GeForce Go 7950 GTX - the original one, that installed with Windows 7, another one downloaded through Windows Update, one downloaded directly from Nvidia website and latest beta driver for my Dell XPS M1710 notebook, downloaded from laptopvideo2go.com - all produce same result described above.
It also might be worth mentioning I'm using multiple displays, and I'm running the game on 24" High Def flat screen monitor, not on the notebook screen. When I restart the computer the game works OK, but after few hours being on or after being waken up from sleep this problem occurs almost every time.
I doubt the issue is specific to my PC or my graphics card, I believe it has to do with the way VP3 interacts with video driver and the OS, so my question is: does Celeris have any near future plans to put Win7 on a test box and take VP3 for a spin?
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby Bubby » Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:23 pm

Running fine here on various Win7 RTM machines with Nvidia cards (8800GT and 7600GS and an Asus EeePC with the built in Intel 915GM POS). What you are decribing sounds more like a hardware issue, namely video ram that is ready to go tits-up or is overheating.
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby vpeer » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:06 pm

We probably will give it a try, not sure how soon. Sounds like a graphics driver issue though NVidia is usually pretty good. The current VP3DL uses a very old version of D3D so that could cause some issues. Multi-monitor can also cause issues though it should not unless perhaps the multt-monitor mode is changed while VP is running. Sleep has never been reliable with Windows, though I have heard W7 is better about it.
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby Apollon » Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:38 pm

Bubby wrote:Running fine here on various Win7 RTM machines with Nvidia cards (8800GT and 7600GS and an Asus EeePC with the built in Intel 915GM POS). What you are decribing sounds more like a hardware issue, namely video ram that is ready to go tits-up or is overheating.


I'm not sure how it can be my hardware issue, given the fact i had been running VP3 on WinXP for over 2 years now, on this exact same notebook with the same graphics card and video ram until a month and a half ago when I upgraded to Win7.
Besides, this is from my Win7 System Event Viewer log:
http://picasaweb.google.com/apollon4life/Misc?authkey=Gv1sRgCKbPnujNxt7M0gE#5379690961919049586

and so is this:
http://picasaweb.google.com/apollon4life/Misc?authkey=Gv1sRgCKbPnujNxt7M0gE#5379690984740000578
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby Apollon » Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:53 pm

vpeer wrote:We probably will give it a try, not sure how soon. Sounds like a graphics driver issue though NVidia is usually pretty good. The current VP3DL uses a very old version of D3D so that could cause some issues. Multi-monitor can also cause issues though it should not unless perhaps the multt-monitor mode is changed while VP is running. Sleep has never been reliable with Windows, though I have heard W7 is better about it.


I canceled the sleep mode in power options - havent experienced the problem since. Ironically, once i solved that problem it turned out Logitech's mouse drivers are still not fully compatible with Win7, so my game is freezing for a few seconds several times a frame, every frame #-o

As far as multi-monitor setup goes - have had this for years and VP3 was fine when I was running XP.
In addition one more problem found - I can't run the game and Sling Player for my Sling Box on another monitor simultaneously - everything starts freezing immidiately and hangs, and sound breaks off too. Used to work fine on XP - could watch TV and play the game on the other monitor. So now my dilemma is: which application is not handling resource sharing properly - VP3 or Sling Player?

Hope you guys at Celeris get to play with Win7 soon, so these issues could be sorted out - only 1 month left until Windows 7 General Release.
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby vpeer » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:57 am

Don't know if sling player or VP is the culprit. I can tell you that the issue with having ffdshow installed on media player causing VP movies not to play is the fault of ffdshow/media player not releasing resources properly, could be a similar issue.
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby Apollon » Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:19 am

vpeer wrote: The current VP3DL uses a very old version of D3D so that could cause some issues.

Looks like you were right on the money. Observe the line which starts with "Fault Module Name": http://picasaweb.google.com/apollon4life/Misc?authkey=Gv1sRgCKbPnujNxt7M0gE#5380489920156060482
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby vpeer » Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:38 pm

RendD3D.dll is a VP3DL module. Not sure why it is crashing, the ffdshow issue I was referring to does not cause a crash as far as I know.
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby Bubby » Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:16 pm

I'm not sure how it can be my hardware issue, given the fact i had been running VP3 on WinXP for over 2 years now, on this exact same notebook with the same graphics card and video ram until a month and a half ago when I upgraded to Win7.


Because Win7 handles the video completely differently than WinXp.
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby Apollon » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:16 am

Bubby wrote:
I'm not sure how it can be my hardware issue, given the fact i had been running VP3 on WinXP for over 2 years now, on this exact same notebook with the same graphics card and video ram until a month and a half ago when I upgraded to Win7.


Because Win7 handles the video completely differently than WinXp.


Bubby I think you're confused - you're contradicting yourself. You said "it's hardware issue" and when I said I doubt it you say "Because Win7 handles the video completely differently than WinXp". That means with the same hardware, different operating systems produce different result - that's a pure definition of software problem...unless you think "an operating system" is hardware...
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby Apollon » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:27 am

Giving a bump to this thread - any update on Win7 support??
I found more problems with VP3 DL on Windows 7 - it doesnt play nice when it comes to video and audio resource sharing:

I have multi-monitor setup. Whenever my Windows 7 machine is either playing a video file or running slingbox player or any other internet video feed from a browser, etc' on one monitor - once I start VP3 on the other monitor - the game seems to take sole control of video and audio driver, and the other application loses both sound and video - black screen and mute. When I tried the same with any other game (i tried 3 others) the other application keeps playing video and also has sound.
As soon as I shut down VP3 - media player or slingbox regain picture and sound. I used the exact same hardware on Windows XP with SP1 and SP2 and SP3 before and VP3 was sharing resources fine. The problem happens every time on Windows 7.

Would it be possible to get an update on Win7 support? Thanks
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby vpeer » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:36 am

We are going to try and look at a Windows 7 installation. I'm not sure the video problem can be corrected. VP3 is using a very old version of DirectX that may be coming to the end of it's continued use on WIndows 7.
Please look at your applications and see if they are using ffdshow. If so try disabling that.
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby vpeer » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:08 pm

I have a few customers having Windows 7 problems. One says:
I select my game and players and then click ok. the garage scene comes on the screen with a notice saying "loading" then the computer freezes.


I'm not sure what is going on. I have W7 and it works fine. Any other input from others having problems or finding fixes would be appreciated.
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby Apollon » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:36 pm

1. Ask them to export the "Application" and "System" log from their Windows Event Viewer and send it to you. Very likely one of these 2 or both will have application or service or isolated dll which is failing.
2. Create and send them debug build - executable of vp3.exe only, which would write to a log file whatever is happening during that "loading" stage
3. Ask them for hardware and software configuration lists from their systems - see if they have things in common, like same video card, same applications installed, etc'
4. Ask them to create brand new user account in their win7 and install only vp3 under that account - see if it works
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby vpeer » Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:49 am

Apollon wrote:1. Ask them to export the "Application" and "System" log from their Windows Event Viewer and send it to you. Very likely one of these 2 or both will have application or service or isolated dll which is failing.
2. Create and send them debug build - executable of vp3.exe only, which would write to a log file whatever is happening during that "loading" stage
3. Ask them for hardware and software configuration lists from their systems - see if they have things in common, like same video card, same applications installed, etc'
4. Ask them to create brand new user account in their win7 and install only vp3 under that account - see if it works


Good advice, usually do #3, won't do #2 unless there are no other options. I think #1 may help a lot asking everyone to do that.
Why would there be account specific issues for application? Can you give me examples of what they would be?
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby Apollon » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:07 pm

cant give you an example what the issues might be with specific account, because ive never gotten to the bottom of those. I can only speculate it might have something to do with permissions, set for this user on certain folders or user account policies or system PATh variable, or changing virtual memory size/settings for that specific account, etc'. However, I can give you personal guarantee quite a few times in my life ive seen this happen and one of the applications is iTunes - things which I simply couldnt get to work under my own Windows account (of course full system admin with all priviliges) worked like a charm under brand new account. When you install applications and windows updates - you never know what kind of weird things they may write to registry, which affect current user account.
Trying new user account is also standard support procedure for many software companies, it's in the customer support guidelines as one of the first things to try.
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby Bubby » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:29 pm

Apollon wrote:
Bubby wrote:
I'm not sure how it can be my hardware issue, given the fact i had been running VP3 on WinXP for over 2 years now, on this exact same notebook with the same graphics card and video ram until a month and a half ago when I upgraded to Win7.


Because Win7 handles the video completely differently than WinXp.


Bubby I think you're confused - you're contradicting yourself. You said "it's hardware issue" and when I said I doubt it you say "Because Win7 handles the video completely differently than WinXp". That means with the same hardware, different operating systems produce different result - that's a pure definition of software problem...unless you think "an operating system" is hardware...


Win7 runs aero (aka the desktop) in 3d mode (as if it were a game). WinXp runs the desktop in 2D mode. Not surprising lots of hardware that is up to the task in XP is not in Win7. Play an ancient game like VP3 on top of that and you have a hardware issue in Win7 whereas you wouldn't in XP. Links 2003 is another game from this era that has huge issues in Win7. Fortunately VP3 has a developer that is still slightly interested in keeping it running on modern operating systems.

See? I'm not confused. :bootyshake: Merely speculating LIKE ALL OF YOU ARE. ;)
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby vpeer » Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:18 pm

So far, most of the Windows 7 problems we have seen with VP3 have been video driver related.
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby Apollon » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:36 pm

With all do respect - speculations about the root cuase of the Windows 7 compatibility problems dont help us - people want solution. Latest Windows operating system, supported for VP3 by Celeris is Windows XP. Windows XP was released in February 2002 and we're in the second half of 2010 - are we seriously expected to be using 8.5 year old OS?!

My issues with VP3 on WIndows 7 x64 arent going away and only getting worse. VP3 hangs every other time and the only thing to do I found to work is reboot the computer. That is incredibly annoying.

Here are some snippets from my Event Viewer, Application log:

Event Name: Application Hang

The program vp3.exe version 3.3.1.1 stopped interacting with Windows and was closed. To see if more information about the problem is available, check the problem history in the Action Center control panel.


preceeded with the following event:

Fault bucket , type 0
Event Name: AppHangXProcB1
Response: Not available
Cab Id: 0

Problem signature:
P1: vp3.exe
P2: 3.3.1.1
P3: 47e6ca05
P4: 47d5
P5: 2176
P6: svchost.exe:AudioClientRpc
P7: 0.0.0.0
P8:
P9:
P10:

Attached files:
C:\Users\Apollon\AppData\Local\Temp\WERC1E1.tmp.appcompat.txt
C:\Users\Apollon\AppData\Local\Temp\WERC5B8.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml

one more related event before this:

Event Name: Desktop Window Manager

The Desktop Window Manager was unable to start because composition was disabled by a running application


We've been fed up with promises about VP4 for years now - it's still not here, and the support for VP3 desktop version seems to have been discontinued long ago, in terms of patches and fixes for existing issues. So, what are we, paying customers, who are not willing to be stuck with ancient OS because of 1 outdated game, are supposed to do meanwhile?
Seeing Celeris put all their efforts into mobile development, such as iphone, ipad, etc' because it generates new revenue, without paying any attention to already existing customers is very discouraging and makes people seriously reconsider purchasing future Celeris products. I, for once, own multiple VP3 licenses and would like to be given a chance to play the game on Windows system, which is newer than the one, almost a decade old.
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby Bagpuss » Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:18 pm

Hi,

Interestingly. I've got Windows 7 64-bit and VP3 DL has never had an issue. My laptop has an ATI card/chipset. I note one of the event log entries mentioned an audio component (AudioClientRPC) - thought that was interesting (although I confess to limited knowledge of these logs).

I personally don't have in-game music playing or a CD in the drive whilst playing VP3 DL. I also notice the sound effects differ if you have hardware acceleration disabled (which I don't). I wonder if playing with NO audio whatsoever would help you identify whether it's audio related or not. I guess you've tried with the various video options toggled on/off already. If you do run successfully with audio off, try updating your audio drivers as well.

Might be a herring of the red variety, but I thought I'd mention it.

As for VP4, I've been waiting years too as no other PC pool game comes close. PC gaming is fizzling out and the incentives aren't there any more when there's quick bucks to be made on the mobile devices. But the console market IS there and a PC port from, say, an Xbox 360 version is a breeze so we're spared disappointment as long as a console variant comes out. VP4 needs PR big-time and there's none coming from Celeris, so they're 100% reliant on the game selling itself - I guess that discussion is for another thread...

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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby AlinVille » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:54 am

Bagpuss wrote:Hi,

Interestingly. I've got Windows 7 64-bit and VP3 DL has never had an issue.

Same. Works fine on both x86 and x64 Win7.
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby vpeer » Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:54 am

Apollon wrote:With all do respect - speculations about the root cuase of the Windows 7 compatibility problems dont help us - people want solution. Latest Windows operating system, supported for VP3 by Celeris is Windows XP. Windows XP was released in February 2002 and we're in the second half of 2010 - are we seriously expected to be using 8.5 year old OS?!

Sorry you are having problems. VP3 is old and that does cause some issues. It was built with DX8 which is not as old but it does use some older interfaces. Windows backwards compatibility is not always as good as we desire.

This particular problem seems to be with the sound system. My guess would be the sound driver is causing the issue. Please try to update the sound driver from the card manufacturer/mother board manufacturer web site.

If that does not work try disabling the AudioClientRpc service. This may cause sound to stop working on one or more of your applications. See if VP3 works now.


If that does not work please respond back with the sound card/chip information.
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby Apollon » Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:36 pm

Here is my sound card: http://support.creative.com/Products/ProductDetails.aspx?catID=1&CatName=Sound+Blaster&subCatID=208&subCatName=X-Fi&prodID=17751&prodName=X-Fi+Surround+5.1&bTopTwenty=1&VARSET=prodfaq:PRODFAQ_17751,VARSET=CategoryID:1

I've updated the driver to latest version and also tried disconnecting it completely, since it's external USB device - made no difference. VP3 hangs with similar app hang messages in the event viewer, but no reference to any audio services is made.
My system is Dell XPS M1710 notebook, running Win7 x64. It does have on-board sound card, but it's not being used.

I've examined the log after such hangs every time, and I seriously doubt VP3 issues on my system are related to sound card or its driver. The game often freezes after startup, not while in the middle of the game. I click vp3.exe, then the game starts and goes to Main Menu. This is where the problem occurs - clicking on any option at the Main Menu, such as Quick Play causes the game freeze. It even disables the mouse. Alt+Tab doesnt work to get out of full screen, only thing that works is Ctrl+Alt+Delete combo to bring up task manager and kill the game using keyboard keys, since mouse is disabled. The problem frequently occurs after the notebook has been woken up from "sleep" mode, by opening the lid.

Is it possible to provide a debug vp3.exe which would output to .txt file whats going on, targetting very specific portion of functionality - mouse clicking the links on the Main Menu?
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby vpeer » Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:25 pm

This still sounds like a driver problem, probably sound or graphics driver.
When you unhooked the sound device did you make sure the on board sound chip was being used? Please try that.
I would also try shutting down all other applications, even those on the task bar and see if this problem goes away.
You did not mention that you tried disabling the AudioClientRpc service, that is probably worth trying because your details before said it hung there.

You could also try running VP3 in compatibility mode, recommend trying XP.

This could also be a graphics driver problem, though less likely as NVidia drivers are usually pretty good but I would make sure that is up to date too.

The menu logic is pretty simple, it does call the sound driver to play sounds on button clicks. I can't see how a hang there is going to be in VP3.

The mouse is disabled because it is used in exclusive mode for VP3 so when VP3 is hung it can't be released.

Putting in trace messages is most likely going to be a wild goose chase as I'm pretty sure this is a driver issue or some application conflict with use of sound or graphics resources.

Sleep mode could be an issue, PCs have a lot of problems with suspension, though notebooks are typically pretty good about that. Based on your email it seems that this issue occurs of a fresh boot too so even though sleep mode may aggravate the issue, it still exists regardless.
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Re: Windows 7 support for VP3

Postby Bagpuss » Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:46 am

Hi,

I'd agree - and maintain my original position - that it's an audio issue. The hangs on the menu seal it for me as there's audio on selecting an option. It could be anywhere within the audio infrastructure which makes it difficult to hunt it down. Uninstall all audio devices in Device Manager, reboot and Windows will reinstall the drivers - see if that helps. If not, uninstall all audio devices again and then fire up VP to see what happens.

You could also go into the registry (if VP hangs prevent you from doing it conventionally) and set the Effects Volume down to 0 (HKEY_CURRENT_USER --> Software--> Celeris --> Virtual Pool 3 DL --> Current Version --> Effects Volume). This obviously depends on what VP does when the value is 0.

Another logical approach would be to:

1. Uninstall all audio devices
2. Uninstall VP3
3. Reboot
4. Update all audio drivers to latest version and reboot again
5. Reinstall VP3

If even that fails, disable any third party audio managers (some systems have these e.g. Acer eAudio) and see if that helps.

Whatever happens post back with progress - we'll nail this eventually!

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