VP3 Cash Tournaments

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VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby polomint77 » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:35 am

I'm toying with the idea of running a monthly tournament for cash, see http://www.polomint77.co.uk/vp3cash.html

Have a look at the suggestions and please email me, or post your comments and suggestions to this thread.



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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby Hanterp » Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:57 am

I think it is a good idea but I wonder how we can pay with a credit card to a particular person rather than a company.
Is the security guaranteed?
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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby polomint77 » Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:20 am

Yes, I will have to look into the details of accepting credit card payments. I'm not quite sure about how the whole thing will work yet, and I also need to look into the security implications with taking credit card payments.

I'll give more information as and when I can get it...

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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby mojoicus » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:01 am

I know some will disagree but can u do a high class player tourny and a not so high class tourny ,because no matter what anyone says the same set of players will generally win

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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby WIT_UK » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:37 pm

I know some will disagree but can u do a high class player tourny and a not so high class tourny ,because no matter what anyone says the same set of players will generally win


Could not agree more Mojo.. :strokeit:
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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby Albinario » Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:10 am

Or you can use my ultimate handicap format.
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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby polomint77 » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:18 am

Albinario wrote:Or you can use my ultimate handicap format.


Information about this please....
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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby AlinVille » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:14 pm

My first suggestion was that matches should be long at least like in the world champs; for example in 9Ball we should have at least races to 21, although I'd like them way higher than that. In the long run luck is minimized, which is what you want in a good cash tourney.

WIT_UK wrote:
mojoicus wrote:I know some will disagree but can u do a high class player tourny and a not so high class tourny ,because no matter what anyone says the same set of players will generally win

Could not agree more Mojo..


In a not-so-high-class-players tourney anything can happen so a cash event could work; if the skill is somewhat balanced overall, anyone has a fair chance at winning, so there will be signups. But I can't imagine a high class tourney with more than 3 players in it, since there are only about 3 guys who usually win everything in a certain gametype. And if such a tourney would have more players they would stand no chance at all so I don't think that encourages anyone else to sign up.

Handicaps are tough to figure out but if they're done correctly that should definitely work out. They require a good solid criteria. The in-game rating is pointless since some players don't bother playing a certain gametype because they hate it, even if they can be quite skilled at it; plus it can be fake, so overall it's bad. A decent criteria would be the rating shown on the tourney system, but that's also flawed since new players always have awful ratings even if they're more skilled than old players.

So if I were to figure out handicaps for a match between two players in a certain gametype I'd choose as a criteria the winning percentage shown on the tourney system for that game, I think that's the most relevant. Have to choose some extremes to illustrate better examples, so if we take a few from 9Ball we have this:

AlinVille - 82.08%
Albinario - 77.84%
NuggetUK - 76.13%
WIT_UK - 41.60%
mojoicus - 36.92%

Depending how long is the race (it's important!) you can sort out handicaps based on the difference between percentages. Let's say it's a race to 30. In that case I think I'd grant an extra frame for any difference of 5.00% (decimals are important aswell). So, in a match between:

Albinario vs AlinVille: the difference is only 4.24%, so it would start at 0-0, ul.
NuggetUK vs AlinVille: the difference is 5.95%, so it would start at 1-0 for NuggetUK.
WIT_UK vs AlinVille: the difference is 40.48%, so it would start at 8-0 for WIT_UK.
mojoicus vs AlinVille: the difference is 45.16%, so it would start at 9-0 for mojoicus.
mojoicus vs WIT_UK: the difference is 4.68%, so it would start at 0-0.

But if it was a race to 5 for example, the difference would have to be way bigger in order to give any handicaps since a frame has a much higher importance. So what's essential in order to create balanced games is to figure out exactly the correct percentage difference needed to grant an extra frame compared to the race length; and it just goes progressively. That's about it.

I play poker for a living so percentages are my thing. If I were to organize them it would be like this:
- basic rule: in a race to 30, grant a frame for any difference of 5.00%
- which means in a race to 1, grant a frame for any difference of 30x5=150% (only in theory)
- now you can easily calculate the required percentages by dividing 150% to the race length
- race to 5: 30.00% (150%/5)
- race to 10: 15.00% (150%/10)
- race to 20: 7.50% (150%/20)
- race to 30: 5.00% (150%/30)
- race to 40: 3.75% (150%/40)
- race to 50: 3.00% (150%/50)
- race to 60: 2.50% (150%/60)
- it goes progressively, easy to figure out

So to further exemplify I'll take the extremes. Knowing that the difference between AlinVille and mojoicus is 45.16%, the handicaps granted in different race lengths would be:
- race to 5: mojoicus 1 - 0 AlinVille (45.16%/30.00)
- race to 10: mojoicus 3 - 0 AlinVille (45.16%/15.00)
- race to 20: mojoicus 6 - 0 AlinVille (45.16%/7.50)
- race to 30: mojoicus 9 - 0 AlinVille (45.16%/5.00)
- race to 40: mojoicus 12 - 0 AlinVille (45.16%/3.75)
- race to 50: mojoicus 15 - 0 AlinVille (45.16%/3.00)
- race to 60: mojoicus 18 - 0 AlinVille (45.16%/2.50)

Notice that the basic rule determines everything else, it's the most important aspect. Of course it can be changed if all this doesn't seem balanced, but to me it looks pretty accurate. So how's that?
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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby Stub » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:23 pm

cash f time now k lets get this sho on the rood ask around n we may c k
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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby polomint77 » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:02 am

Wow Alin, detailed information, thanks.. I've spent a little while thinking about it and I think that you have that idea absolutely spot-on. I'll have to spend some time working out exactly how I think it would all work. Also, the high-class tourney is a very good idea, cos you are right that there are always 3 or 4 that always win in certain gametypes...

Thanks for that in-depth explanation.
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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby Albinario » Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:03 am

Fair format.

Problem is new players who have few, or no games, played on the tourney system. The fewer games played, the higher chance of a statisitical deviance from the long run percentage of a player. This could be solved by temporary handicaps made by the TD based on info gathered about the player in question.

Another problem if we were to play cash tournies a lot, is that people could downrank on the tournament system to gain a higher handicap in the cash tournaments. Therefore, Alin's system should only be used in the first few cash tournaments - after that the handicaps should be based on the results of the cash tournaments themselves.
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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby AlinVille » Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:41 am

Never happened.
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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby niksana951 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:37 am

I think those % Alin is talking about should be for players that have played more than 100 matches in that game type. Because if mojoicus have played 1 9 ball tourney and won it this means He'll have 100%. And when he plays me He will start from 0 - 6 because i have 70% or so. And lets say im a little bit better! How unfair would that be for him!?
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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby polomint77 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:03 am

AlinVille wrote:Never happened.


I'm still thinking about doing this Alin, but I've got too much on at the moment to look into it further.. But, watch this space!, :)
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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby *VP3* » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:48 pm

It's a fine idea but how will those who find the need to disrupt? As we all know, stub is the #1 problem.
In real tournaments and leagues , disruptors are banned.

May I suggest have said players post a deposit one week before entering, not a minute late either.
Anytime within that week of the tournament the entry fee doubles and 1/2 goes into the players future entry fees. This way if a player is late, the player isn't subject to a monetary loss. Call it a pre-deposit.

As for myself, I have no idea if I can play in any given tournament until the day of that tournament.
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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby Mantorok » Wed May 12, 2010 2:36 am

This is something I've considered running in the past, but realised the market isn't big enough and you will have to cover the costs of this, the time and effort may simply not be worth it.

The definite costs you will be looking at:

  • Hosting: $10/month approx
  • Payments: You probably won't get your own merchant account as it requires a business, so use of say Google Checkout or Paypal will result in a percentage taking
  • SSL Cert: Between $29 - $500, however the latter more expensive certs usually require a business name etc.

EDIT: Google CheckOut and Paypal may already give you secure pages so you could rule out the last point.

Not to mention, if you did this properly, the amount of time to compose a fully featured website, IMO you need to attach a tournament engine to this as well to get people to really buy-in, then as another poster mentioned you have the headaches of dealing with the likes of stub, he's bad enough now but what about when money is involved? This will also need to be incredibly secure, it's a minefield and will eat up days or even weeks of your time.

Like I say I did consider it myself and decided it was opening a can of worms :-)

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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby polomint77 » Wed May 12, 2010 3:31 am

Yep, you are right, that can of worms is more like a a tanker of eels...

Stub is easy to sort, just ban the fecker... Nik too if he pisses about.. Poolminator too just cos I can, :p
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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby 9balldotcom » Wed May 12, 2010 9:59 am

What aboutm the simplest way of doing it.?

You all agree who is going to be allowed to play in the tourney
You all agree what the entry fee is
You have a paypal account
You all pay in to a designated bankers account prior to the tourney.
When the banker has confirmed that all entrants funds are in that account then the tourney goes ahead.
When the winner is announced then the banker pays the winning funds into the winners paypal account....shimples.

So I volunteer Polo as the banker as he has an in and out paypal account...that is to say I only have a paying out paypal account for me to pay moneys to people and I dont have a bank account associated with my paypal so I cannot take payments in and be the banker.

Now if you all really want to play a monry tourney yous all have done it by now and cut all the bs. :bs:

Now what I suggest is.....get on with it.
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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby polomint77 » Thu May 13, 2010 5:46 am

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby AlinVille » Fri May 14, 2010 1:42 pm

9balldotcom wrote:What aboutm the simplest way of doing it.?

You all agree who is going to be allowed to play in the tourney
You all agree what the entry fee is
You have a paypal account
You all pay in to a designated bankers account prior to the tourney.
When the banker has confirmed that all entrants funds are in that account then the tourney goes ahead.
When the winner is announced then the banker pays the winning funds into the winners paypal account....shimples.

So I volunteer Polo as the banker as he has an in and out paypal account...that is to say I only have a paying out paypal account for me to pay moneys to people and I dont have a bank account associated with my paypal so I cannot take payments in and be the banker.

Now if you all really want to play a monry tourney yous all have done it by now and cut all the bs. :bs:

Now what I suggest is.....get on with it.

Your most logical post. :ontopic:
(and possibly the only one!)
I suggest the same. :strokeit:
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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby 9balldotcom » Fri May 14, 2010 3:19 pm

well albi explained after to me that there is a precentage loss to the banker
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Re: VP3 Cash Tournaments

Postby AlinVille » Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:50 am

So... when are we setting the cs?
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